Newsnight - How they undertake in depth investigations into the number of "major terror plots" that the Prime MInister talks about
Newsnight have an e-mail address to which the public are invited to suggest subjects for investigation. (Meirion Jones is a Newsnight producer and (for example) produced Greg Palast's fundNewsnight report on vulture s he also produced Michael Crick's report for Newsnight (BBC2) on the Israeli nuclear sales in the 50's and 60's *** , which was broadcast on 9 March 2006 and wrote an article on it in the New Statesman in 2006 )
We sent an e-mail to Meirion Jones - NewsnightInvestigations@bbc.co.uk
Quite a simple investigation really - here are the basics - just how many "major" terror plots are there ? If in May it was 6 and now it is 30 then it has increased 500% which is remarkable. Of course if the figure of 30 - much quoted elsewhere, is a lie, then that is of interest.
Let us know how you get on.
Result
Someone calling himself Meirion rung back a short while ago. He explained that there were 2,000 people under active investigation and this is what the pM was referring to.
Explained it was good of him to translate for the PM and Government but that wasn't what PM said - he talked of major terrorist plots. That was what Blair & Quick said to MP's , that was what "advisers" with PM talked about.
Evidently not interested in pursueing how many amjor . minor plots there were / are and sawe tis just as semantic onfusion. He remains convinced 2,000 folks un UK were being actively investigated - which is not difficult to believe - the Plods in the Terrorist section must fill in their time doing something - we have over 350 in Greater Manchester alone.
Derided any idea that MI5/6/7/8/9 had infiltrated the plotters of anything - although secret services get up to all sorts.
Poo poohed the Patel plot that the 7/7 bombers were unware of the contents of their bags - they have lots of information they cannot reveal - they know what the 7/7 bombs were made of .....
Totally closed mind to anything but the official party line that the UK is simply crawling with crazed fundamentalist Muslims busy mixing Brylcreem, pepper and Lucozade in bed sits - although somehow connected with a mulit million pound funded hghly successful guerilla force in Afghanistan / Pakistan with access to military explosive etc.,
*** We were selling bits and pieces to the Israeli's for their nuclear programme at the time after 1964 when Harold Wilson installed Anthony Wedgewood Benn (as he then styled himself) as Minister of Technology.
"I'm not only surprised," he says, "I'm shocked." Neither he nor his predecessor Frank Cousins agreed to the sales, he insists, and though he always suspected civil servants of doing deals behind his back, "it never occurred to me they would authorise something so totally against the policy of the government".
Not me guv, I 'no nuffink abaht it .
16 comments:
Edward - I do sometimes read your blog - since it often has useful links and interesting contributions but your account of our conversation is slightly misleading. You sent me an email mentioning the 2,000 under investigation and the varying accounts of how many plots there were. I said I thought the figure of 2,000 was plausible and consistent with what we had learnt from our own investigations - including talking to people who had been sent to training camps to learn how to carry out attacks- and people who had organised the networks here. The plots are so interconnected (you can create a "Wall of Doom" which shows how every single person is linked to every other) that it is a matter of semantics saying how many plots there are. Although as I said to you I'm sure politicians use the numbers that will most help them at a particular moment. Newsnight has consistently revealed information suggesting that various plotters were under police surveillance at various times. My colleague Richard Watson was the journalist who first revealed that MSK had been under surveillance in 2004. (We now know that he was in their sights in 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004 and 2005) As recently as last Tuesday when the Glasgow bomber Bilal Abdulla was convicted we detailed how Kafeel Ahmed had come to the attention of the security services in 2003 because of his involvement with Abbas Boutrab. So you will see that we are very keen on getting information about what the security services knew but I go on evidence and there is plenty of photographic, video and forensic evidence that MSK and co knew exactly what they were doing. As you said yourself you could not explain why MSK would record a suicide bomber video if he didn't know he was going to be a suicide bomber. As to the information that we cannot reveal for legal reasons I'm not just saying it. You will remember that right through the Crevice trial we were not allowed to disclose to the public that the people the defendants were filmed with were MSK and co because the jury were not supposed to know this. It meant that a completely distorted picture of the nature of the terrorist threat was given until the end of the trial - that the 7/7 attacks had been carried out by cleanskins and that any muslim might spontaneously turn into a suicide bomber - rather than that these were usually known members of radical networks. There are similar orders in place on many of these trials. In the Ragzieb Ahmed trial the jury and the public were not told about the torture allegations. I think it is wrong and that juries should be told everything but it is the law and unfortunately journalists are legally prevented from telling all they know. And that's before you get into Britain's ridiculous libel laws which can make it practically impossible to name obvious wrongdoers as you can in the US and some other jurisdictions. Oh and by the way Tony Benn is Wedgwood like the crockery not Wedgewood. But if any of your readers do have new information on this subject or any other or if you have a whistle to blow do contact us at NewsnightInvestigations@BBC.co.uk or go to our page at http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/7617204.stm
Meirion
I think I saw Bob Monkhouse say in a video that he 'did 7/7'.
Because the years have yet to addle my brain I remember that the 'cleanskin' story started off as being about white muslim terrorists. Which suggests to me that for a few days anyway there may have been evidence out there which may have pointed to light skinned bombers. If there was any it was hoovered up sharpish and the myth reworked
The MSK video whilst undoubtedly sinister is not a 'suicide' video and, call me cynical, but I've yet to hear a credible explanation as to its source
We could go all afternoon
Newsnight's coverage has been consistently sensationalist and selective. I wouldn't expect a national state broadcaster, even an honest one, to repeat any old conspiratorial tat as being news but, let's be honest about it, that's exactly what they do - provided the tat is establishment sourced
The one thing matey could mention which I would have acknowledged as being an example of Newsnight doing some honest investigative journalism, rather repeating propaganda, is the piece they did on Dean Godson's Zionist Neocon lobbytank faking evidence about radical literature on sale in british Mosques. It was jaw dropping stuff, more because of its scarcity rather than the completely unsurprising revelation itself
And even, assuming for one moment, that the nature of the domestic terror threat is exactly as portrayed in Newsnight's coverage, the program's producers have consistently failed to address the more than likely probability that the scale and implications of the threat are repeatedly exaggerated by government and special interest groups to suit their own individual agendas
hang your heads low in fucking shame you chickenshit whores - the very least you deserve is to be out on your arses seeking a more honest way of earning a living and I for one will support any initiative which looks like it might delivers that result
and Lord P., while we're at it, next time your new pal phones could you ask when Newsnight's next going to do one of those pieces about how bad the Russians are; featuring some utterly impartial commentary from one of Boris Berezovsky's paid stooges. They're my favourite
I'm not sure the state propagandists can even start to comprehend how hated they are
Maybe by only a small minority but that small minority is a major chunk of their sentient audience
you captured my thoughts and saved me the trouble, Stef, my thanks
but i have more of my own to add for the benefit of the beeb: the other night newsnight trumpeted its campaigning for a woman accused of murdering a single child in 2005
matters of rigour versus thoroughness were raised - the thoroughness or lack thereof - in regard to work done in the name of finding the true cause of the death, in detail, such that a coherent truth - not narrative, but truth
based upon fact - not innuendo, anonymous bullshit, and repetition - would be ascertained
there was another murder in 2005, it killed over 50 people, you told us all about it in the artforms of innuendo, repetition, and a measure of anonymous bullshit - and now we're all being punished for it in illegitimate laws and a myriad different ways, one man was punished for it with his life
can you guess what i'm talking about ?
'innocent until proven guilty' so the saying goes, though in the case the other night she had been proven guilty whilst innocent
and you didn't even try to say it was an aberration as i recall - perhaps to do so would be a conceit too far ?
i should like to point out to the beeb publicly what they already know in private - that they are directly and specifically culpable in far greater injustices than the cause for which they heroically gonzo journalised, on a near daily - or daily - basis
because, if someone is innocent until proven guilty, then to take a subject of unproven guilt and parade their [unproven] guilt as established fact, is one of the single most despicable betrayals and actions i can imagine, particularly in regard to the dead, who have little recourse
shame
how can you live with it
NewsnightMeirion,
It is bad form to pull up Lord Patel on his spelling. He's an aristocrat, after all.
Do you agree with the proposition that the three train explosions occurred within 50 seconds of each other at 0850?
Have you got the TrackerNet recordings? Have you got the Piccadilly line train register?
Are you saying the explosives used were not pepper and hydrogen peroxide?
Have you got the 7/7 CCTV footage with the missing bits of HH at KC and ST at Woodhall Services?
Dear NewsnightMeirion.
I would really appreciate it if you could spend a little bit of time deliberating here, whether you are certain you're not being played. If you are unsure of what I mean, please watch the classic movie starring Paul Newman and Robert Redford; 'The Sting'. Maybe not so audacious and well manned with insiders as in The Sting, but certainly a concerted effort to bring about the perception of a domestic terror threat with a reasonable supply of patsies-a-plenty.
Your answer is very important to me, so please, if you could, I would appreciate it.
BTW: There are suggestions MSK had dealings with the police and may have had relations with the intelligence services. If the supposed 7-7 bombers were duped to take, unbeknownst to them, actual bombs on 7-7, then it's perfectly reasonable to suggest that what some call 'the suicide video', was part of the operational requirements to conduct a mock terror drill.
The BBC has itself been involved with mock terror simulations. That the security services weren’t or didn’t employ people on a need to know basis is not to be unexpected.
Not wanting to “go [on] all afternoon” I’ll say this…
If the above sounds like a conspiracy theory [contemporary definition] then lets try to clear it up a little: If anyone somehow manages to overturn the proven connections between the intelligence services and so called 'Islamic' terrorists, I’ll call it a conspiracy theory too [contemporary definition] and stand with the rest of the mind zombies who, by sheer chance, rather than via investigation or critical thought, dismissed such things as a ‘conspiracy theory’ by default.
That's not to say I will side with the Governments conspiracy theory! To me, the narrative is far less likely to be the truth than the powers that be being involved in a very British Gladio.
"the public were not told about the torture allegations. I think it is wrong and that juries should be told everything but it is the law and unfortunately journalists are legally prevented from telling all they know." - But isn't it the job of journalists to break the law, if that law is not in the interests of justice and therefore in the benefit and interest of the people?
Just what issue will bring today’s breed of journalists to their feet. Perhaps like my understanding of a conspiracy, I need to update my definition of journalism – something I thought contained elements of virtue and largely involved exposing institutionalised corruption. But don’t today’s journalists still wax lyrical about that and perpetuate the belief they have such a trait? All those "I'll publish the Al-Jazeera memo" calls from the BBC were spectacular don’t you think? Where’s the Gilligan’s gone?
Just before I end, if reporting restrictions lead to false pictures of the supposed ‘threat’ and the BBC facilitated in propagating that, I’d imagine those form very real grounds for a number set of Newsnight reports. I’m sure I don’t need to spell out all the very serious issues it raises.
Thank you.
lwtc247.
Conspiracy (ergo 'conspiracy theory') {contemporary manipulated meaning}: A baseless concocted dark fantasy.
Beg your pardon...
That the security services weren’t or didn’t employ similar mock drills is to be very unexpected, and in doing, they are almost certain to use a number of people on a need to know basis.
Thank you.
Lord Patel's spelling is not as he often claims a rsult of peripheral neuropathycompounded by retinal adenopathy and maybe the onset of Alzeimers.
It is in fact a sort of Da Vinci code which shows that Edward VIIIth the uncrownd King has a yet living heir (and legitimate) to the throne and that the Queen is an imposter.
He now discovers that GCHQ has in fact decoded this - so the gig is up.
Whilst Governor of the Bahamas King Edward VIIIth (the Queen is an imposter) he consorted with a dusky lady of Angolan origin who had become a house factotum in Lisbon and was shipped along with the luggage.
Enough to say dear reader that Lord Patel's first name is Edward, he was born in in 1943 in Bahamas General Hospital (since re-named after his good friend and cousin Princess Margaret). He also has a touch of the tar brush ....
Anyway Ian is a liar the e-mail is given in it's entirety there was no mention of 2000 suspects.There was no intention to mislead.
There was alink to http://postmanpatel.blogspot.com/2008/12/superman-gordon-brown-uses-monbiots.html to provide the basis for the variety of numbers of "official" plots.
Sam Coates was quoted in the Times who was briefed by "Officials"of 30 major bomb plots and 2000 suspects.
My question was of the varying number of bomb plots (not suspects)- this was updated witht he 20 mentoned by a leter found story in the Herald.
It seems to many that 3/4 of either 6. 15,18, 20 or 30 bomb plots is a variable number which is worth settling.
It provides a magnitude of 5 and perhaps a growth in the number of plots from when the Met said 5 of 500%.Which would be astonishing.
Worth a phone call from the BBC to No 10 ? At least.
As Ian is such a keen and regular reader of the blog ; Some more investigatuions worth pursuing ..
1. The number of people dying in the £600,000 Jackal to the Army in Afghanistan.
2. The exact nature / composition of explosives in the 7/7 bomb, how detonated, and how synchronised.
3. How the Jerusalem Post was able to determine the synchronicity and complexity even before the Met could tell the London public when the bombs went off.
4. Why there has been no action over Sir Ian Blair simply keeping the IPCC away )titally illegally) for 5 days from the de Menezes scene of crime, evidence, interviewing officer - the date of Blair's letter etc/.
5. The role of Mengistu and his American PR adviser Cohen in Mugabes Government.
6. An in depth investigation into what happend in North Wales on the day ( and following day)of Chief Constable Todd's death.EG : Who were the helpful walkers who found his body at dusk 100's of yards off the footpath in one of the worst days that year on the mountain ?
Why the peculiar and non standard procedures for using the Mountain rescue team.
What exactly was the stash of alcoholic drink Todd had.
Where is the forensic report on Todds blood ? What does it say ?
7. Why don't the Police use the law to rpoosecute licensees who supply alcohol to people whio are drunk -instead of for example supplying goody bags, flip flops etc., 42 prosesecutions in 2 years for the whole of the UK ?
8. Finally a leitmotif for many a year ... the size and scale of the Missing Trader VAT fraud - £4 Bn. a year at least for over 5 years - and the tiny amount of recovery.
9 Finally one for the wine drinking liberal middle classess well into their 2nd bottle by the time Paxo appears - the huge counterfeit wine industryin Europe and the UK.
We don't wait in hope.
Ziz – thanks for your suggestions and I will deal with them in detail in a moment. Lwtc247 - you also make points which need addressing.
Numeral – I don’t know what point you’re making about the timing of the three bomb explosions. You would expect the suicide bombers to attempt to synchronise their attacks. What I was saying on the explosives was that their composition had been explained in open court (we had someone there all the time) whereas Edward did not realise that information had been made public.
Stef – it’s for others to judge whether your brain is prematurely addled but you’re wrong about the cleanskin theory starting off as a story about white muslim terrorists. It didn’t. The original briefings given to journalists were that these were “cleanskins” in the sense that they had not appeared on the security services radar not that they were white. In fact the security services knew very quickly when they found MSK’s phone that he was on the radar. You ask “when Newsnight’s next going to do one of those pieces about how bad the Russians are”. Let’s see what was the biggest story about Russia this year? The Georgian War perhaps. This will be Newsnight which revealed in Tim Whewell’s reports last month that Moscow’s account of the start of the Georgian War was much closer to the truth than the Georgian version which had been backed by western leaders. Those reports went round the world and caused embarrassment for the British government and President Sakashvili. They showed that Georgian forces had launched a massive and largely unprovoked bombardment on Tskhinvali – and this was corroborated on camera by former British army officer Ryan Grist who was an OSCE observer on the ground. But the good news Stef is that although you may not be strong on facts you’re very strong on hatred and cheap abuse. Maybe you should stick to those – although surely you can come up with something more original than “chickenshit whores”?
Lwtc247 – I have looked at the facts – I’m sceptical about everything and there is not a shred of credible evidence for the idea that the 7/7 bombers did not know what they were doing. There is overwhelming evidence –from all sorts of sources not just those linked to the security services for the activities of the bombers in the days, months and years leading up to their attacks. That said I’m sure we still do not have a full picture yet of what the spooks knew and when they knew it. On the reporting restrictions we did indeed dedicate the whole programme the night the Crevice trial ended to trying to put over the correct picture about interlinked terror plots by people who have come to the notice of the authorities before. We have done so repeatedly since. The problem with the reporting restrictions is not just that journalists would be put in prison for contempt if they break them but that trials – like the Crevice trial - would be abandoned and people who were planning to murder hundreds of civilians would walk free. One of my colleagues organised a seminar for senior members of the judiciary recently to try to convince them that there was a need for change in this area especially since in this day and age members of the jury have usually Googled the defendants and know much of what they are supposed to be in ignorance of.
Ziz – on your specific suggestions – (1) I’ve already been looking at the Jackal’s performance although it seems there is not enough data yet. (2) The detailed nature of the explosives was revealed in court. (3) The Jerusalem Post is a red herring. (4) Blair has now gone. (5) The American role in Mengistu’s move to Zimbabwe including Hank Cohen’s part was revealed by the BBC in 1999. (6) I do think our Manchester newsroom might want to put in some FOIs about Chief Constable Todd’s death. (7) Police and drink is worth a look. I’ll check that. (8) The BBC has extensively investigated Missing Trader fraud and indeed the figure of £4 billion a year comes from a Panorama. (9) I think the counterfeit wine is more Jancis Robinson’s territory than mine – unless it is what Stef has been drinking.
Iam
Ziz – on your specific suggestions – (1) I’ve already been looking at the Jackal’s performance although it seems there is not enough data yet.
So we wait until there are more soldiers blown to bits before we raise the problem ?
(2) The detailed nature of the explosives was revealed in court.
No it wasn't - if you think ti was please details public reports, chapter and verse.
BTW the supposed bombs ound in the cars at Luton were all blown to bits
The actual 7/7 forensic report is not available.
It is the subject of an FOI request.
Interestingly this was not available to Met Polive even one year after the explosions - see reid meeting suvicors of the 7/7 bombs.
(3) The Jerusalem Post is a red herring.
Why ? It is extant and requires explanation however red the herring.
(4) Blair has now gone.
Hooray
(5) The American role in Mengistu’s move to Zimbabwe including Hank Cohen’s part was revealed by the BBC in 1999.
You don't read - I said Mengistus role in propping up Mugabes dictatorship etc., his extraction By the US was first disclosed by others than the BBC.
(6) I do think our Manchester newsroom might want to put in some FOIs about Chief Constable Todd’s death.
Shurely they shoudl have been asking from Day 1. I am available to help your mancunian colleagues - I was indeed outside their offices last week protesting about the treatment of a journalist in Iraq .... when only one BBC NUJ member turned up. So much for solidarity of the Journalistic classes.
(7) Police and drink is worth a look. I’ll check that.
We all, I am sure, look forward to hearing how you get on.
(8) The BBC has extensively investigated Missing Trader fraud and indeed the figure of £4 billion a year comes from a Panorama.
Bollocks the only figures that have any meaning come from the ONS and that is the source of the £4 Bn.
They haven't despite a lot of asking produced any meaningful data for 2 years.
(9) I think the counterfeit wine is more Jancis Robinson’s territory than mine
Why this is organised major criminal activity which affects HMRC revenues. I accnot be certain but I am sure the delightful JR would decline any offers to get involved - she does not (one imagines) wish to get involved with the murky end of the bizniz.
– unless it is what Stef has been drinking.... I leave it to Stef to answer for himself.
BTW Tim Whewell's reports were first heard on BBC4 Radio - I think from our Foreiogn Correspondent got the first reports of his visits out. Nesnight admittedly got the one with pictures out - BBC 4 don't do pictures.
Also BTW YOU might find if you search this blog the build up to the Ossetian and Abkhazian problems were written about on this blog for over 2 years.
The rols of Israel (which in many respects was critical) has also been discussed at length , supplying arms etc., which was noticeably absent from Tim Whewell's otherwise excellent reports.
Friday, September 05, 2008
HRW report Cluster bomb use was right - they were used - but by the Georgians not the Russians and they were M85's of Israeli manufacture
Tuesday, August 26, 2008
Gal Hirsch and his "Defensive Shield" sent Georgians to their death - unprepared - IDF secrets are now in the hands of the Russians.
Thursday, August 14, 2008
Randy Scheunemann, McCain's Foreign Policy advisor was paid lobbyist for Georgia unti March 08
Tuesday, August 12, 2008
2 Israeli defence firms say they left Georgia before fighting - who is Davit Kezerashvili ?
8/9/2008
US Army Exercise Immediate Response 2008 exercises completed July 31st to train Georgian forces
This by the way was the first report which was even a bit ahead of Tim Whewell
Friday, August 08, 2008
Georgia starts major attack on South Ossetia - Russia starts upping the ante
and before tha
Friday, August 08, 2008
Georgia starts major attack on South Ossetia - Russia starts upping the ante
Saturday, October 13, 2007
Bullets and Boney M used in attacks on Abkhazian and Ossetian separatists
and finally a bit of Kulchur and US diplomacy to bolster georgia
Tuesday, December 18, 2007
Vani - The Golden Land of Colchis
Sunday, September 30, 2007
Vani - The Land of the Golden Fleece
Which realted to ..
Dec. 1-Feb. 24:
10 a.m.-5:30 p.m. Daily (Closed Christmas Day)
Arthur M. Sackler Gallery - Smithsonian Institution
1050 Independence Ave. SW Washington, DC
• Information: 202-633-1000 • Price: Free
You might like to visit the Georgian Ambasadorial website and read about the exhibition and also ...
Sunday, September 30, 2007
Abkhazia - Upper and Lower, countries that are far away and of which we know little
8/11/2007
Israel's part in arming Georgia, and the risky game of Russian Roulette they have been playing
There is more but this should while away an hour or three to get you up to speed.
I look fwd to hearing from your Mancunian colleagues re the murder of CC Todd.
"UK members of the British-American Project include"
"Jeremy Paxman broadcast journalist and author"...
http://tinyurl.com/75xase
"If Kirsty and Jack thought Majorca was hot"...
http://tinyurl.com/2jsmom
"Wark faces new probe threat over film"...
http://tinyurl.com/2cdseg
"TV's Wark paid herself £200,000 as firm made loss of £1m"...
http://tinyurl.com/32lfjp
NewsnightMeirion
"The original briefings given to journalists were that these were “cleanskins” in the sense that they had not appeared on the security services radar not that they were white. In fact the security services knew very quickly when they found MSK’s phone that he was on the radar."
His phone? His phone? That's new. What about his ID documents found at ER and Aldgate? All they then had to do was look him up on the International Terrorism database. Ask Rachel North about that.
NewsnightMeirion:
"Numeral – I don’t know what point you’re making about the timing of the three bomb explosions. You would expect the suicide bombers to attempt to synchronise their attacks. What I was saying on the explosives was that their composition had been explained in open court (we had someone there all the time) whereas Edward did not realise that information had been made public."
Timing of explosions:
Richard Barnes, Chair of the GLA 7 July Review Committee, in front of the uniformed representatives of MPS, BTP, LFB and LAS, said the Piccadilly line explosion occurred at 0852 or 0853. He was not contradicted.
The Liverpool Street footage released at the Kingston trial showed a timestamp of 0746. assuming the clock was on GMT, not BST, this puts the time of the Aldgate explosion several minutes before 0850. Even the Beeb reported that an incident at Aldgate was reported to BTP at 0849.
Note that Clifford Todd testified at Kingston that FEEL were unable to detect any pepper residue at any bomb site. There is zero forensic evidence that pepper formed part of the main charge,
NewsnightMerrion - you didn't address any of the points i raised, at least, as far as i can tell not here
people's anger at newsnight/the beeb in general is not some random effect deriving from too much contaminated booze, though it might in part be explained a paucity of fluoride, msg, and aspartame intake, it's (speaking for myself) to do with having some semblance of knowledge of things beyond that which the beeb - and others - put out, and seeing the incompatibility between the two 'realities'
speaking of fluoride: prove to us you're interested in public safety/health and safety concerns by outing fluoride (and why not bring along msg and aspartame and their many friends along for the ride) in one of your editions
what was it Einstein said ? "condemnation without investigation is the height of ignorance"
^ oh, and please forgive my miss-spelling of your name, NewsnightMeirion
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